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Discussion: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
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forbrich |
40. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 1 2008, 10:15 AM EDT
"Its just a matter of knowing what is possible. I have shown a lot of managers/techos what can be done with Grid Control with their Oracle databases, and all of them have been pleasantly surprised if not outright amazed. 99% expressed an interest to use Grid Control to simply make their lives easier. I have mentioned this on my blog at http://enterprise-manager.blogspot.com/ "I agree that many people are amazed at what is possible. That is why I say "it's not the DBA we need to convince". For the SysAdmins, it's a pure political play - they likely have their favorite tool. (Why OEM instead of OpenView? or UniCenter?) For Management, they are almost universally interested once they see the console. Add to that the VPD-based security and they are excited ... until they see the pricing for the very valuable add-on packs. Until Oracle puts out an official ROI calculator, the apparent price of the packs is going to be a deal breaker. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
yngmrmoon |
41. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 1 2008, 5:41 PM EDT
We actually got our sys-admins to switch to OEM from their favorite tools and even the free ones. Once they saw that they could go back and look at a history of CPU and memory utilization, they were hooked. Having been the developer, sys-admin, and a manager helps to know how and what to pitch to your potential target audience.
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porushh |
42. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 2 2008, 2:37 AM EDT
Thats a good one mate. The sysadmins would definitely be happy with that history. Also all that is stored in the Central Oracle EM Repository instead of files all over the place.
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porushh |
43. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 2 2008, 2:47 AM EDT
Mate, prices are always negotiable with Oracle. And besides Oracle openly publishes its list prices. The packs are only a fraction of the cost of the Enterprise Edition software in any case, Besides, you pay for what you get. You have the Oracle database, and you need the best management tool in the world to handle your database. Oracle know best about their database themselves, why would you buy a tool from some other company to manage it? Get the management tool from Oracle. If you have a Jaguar (owned by Tata), and all cars have electronics and computers nowadays, would you get the management software to run the car from a totally different car manufacturer, or from Jaguar itself?
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forbrich |
44. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 2 2008, 10:32 AM EDT
"Mate, prices are always negotiable with Oracle. And besides Oracle openly publishes its list prices. The packs are only a fraction of the cost of the Enterprise Edition software in any case, Besides, you pay for what you get. You have the Oracle database, and you need the best management tool in the world to handle your database. Oracle know best about their database themselves, why would you buy a tool from some other company to manage it? Get the management tool from Oracle. If you have a Jaguar (owned by Tata), and all cars have electronics and computers nowadays, would you get the management software to run the car from a totally different car manufacturer, or from Jaguar itself?"Prices are not always negotiable. In many cases, customers are on a contracted plan for a fixed time, and if the contract negotiators did not know what they were negotiating (product not in scope yet) the specific price for good stuff like the Packs may indeed be locked in at list for a while. I see it a lot. It is true that packs list price is a fraction of the cost of the monitored product. From the above, I was amused to see that the fraction for one customer was 110% because the packs were left at list, but the database was at a deep discount. For your Jaguar statement - in this day and age, many cars have computers and EEProms to regulate engine performance. It is interesting tat aftermarket performance systems, not originating from the manufacturer, can provide significant enhancement due to both better monitoring and better interpretation of the data. Sometimes that is true even for Oracle products. So yes, I would look around for the best source for my management software. Do you find this valuable? |
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porushh |
45. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 3 2008, 12:36 AM EDT
I would disagree mate with your last statement. I would prefer Oracle products like Grid Control dealing with the Oracle database rather than 3rd party products, especially when tweaking is involved. No one would know Oracle better than Oracle. In fact, even reading by 3rd party products may be unsupported. As an example, take the case of 3rd party products that read Oracle redo logs to replicate data and dont go through the Logminer interface. Have a loook at Oracle Metalink Note:97080.1 which says that this is not a supported interface and the data in the destination database cannot be assured in the case of unsupported proprietarty interfaces to the log files since Oracle can and does change the data in the log files when fixing bugs. In such a case, 3rd party products are not aware of such internal changes in their proprietary interfaces. Likewise, even if a performance Guru were to write a tool to interact with the Oracle database, I would still prefer Oracle Grid Control. Why? Because Oracle know what they are doing. Because they are the ones who have created the database and all the tuning features in 9i, 10g and 11g. Because of the world-class Enterprise level support for the tool, available around the world and around the clock (how many companies can equal Oracle Worldwide support's strengths?). Because of the knowledge that Grid Control is already better (SLAs, Dashboards, Quality Control. etc) than previous releases and will be enhanced more and more by Oracle in future releases. Because of the knowledge that Oracle will be there for us much more than any other 3rd party company or perfornance gurus. Just my view, but it is echoed by a lott of other DBAs. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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forbrich |
46. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 3 2008, 12:27 PM EDT
Your statement is a personal preference statement and not a business rule. It is echoed by a number of DBAs, and a whole pile of DBAs also refute it.I have been using Oracle for over 25 years. I know they have good stuff. I also know that there are some external organizations that actually know more about Oracle internals than Oracle itself knows. As an example, note that Log Miner was originated by a third party company, not by Oracle. They bought it because it was significantly superior to what Oracle was trying to accomplish. There are a lot of good things in Grid Control. It is worth considering. But my comments above about the reasons why companies do not use it are based on my observations as a consultant, and my relatively constant fight to introduce Grid Control into my customers. Do you find this valuable? |
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forbrich |
47. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 3 2008, 12:49 PM EDT
Further - I also refer you to the [former] company SysInternals, a third party that provided absolutely incredible tools for use with Microsoft products. So good, in fact, that Microsoft bought the company. This phenomenon is not limited to Oracle.
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porushh |
48. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 9 2008, 12:07 PM EDT
"I also know that there are some external organizations that actually know more about Oracle internals than Oracle itself knows.If Oracle has the source code of the database software and third-parties do not, how can this be possible? As with the log reading example, there are compainies not using the logminer interface, and as such they are unaware of changes Oracle makes to the logs when fixing bugs. There is also a famous third-party tool for interacting with the database and many consultants warn against using that tool in production due to performance impacts. Do you find this valuable? |
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forbrich |
49. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 9 2008, 4:13 PM EDT
"If Oracle has the source code of the database software and third-parties do not, how can this be possible? "Oracle is a massive product. It is nearly impossible for people, even those with access to source code, to see or understand the interaction between various subsystems. The developer is interested in accomplishing a specific functionality, ut may not be aware of all other aspects and interactions. Yes, a new development is implemented cautiously and after much discussion, but not in conjunction with every real world set of interactions. There are people who make a study of specific interactions (usually as a result of a field bug or crisis) and end up knowing more than the original developer. Someone who spends considerable time and energy to understanding a specific area can usually adapt very quickly to things such as undocumented changes to the log files. It's a basic engineering principal. Proper black-box analysis can reveal undocumented, undesired, and/or unexpected responses. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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ka220181 |
50. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 27 2008, 6:17 PM EDT
Conceptually, Grid Control appeals to me as it provides a central repository and single point of entry for all of my database targets across environments. That's really handy when you have 2500+ databases to manage. I really like the web-based EM interface and not having to remember thousands of URLs is a GOOD thing.Other aspects that appeal to me are the provisioning and configuration management capabilities. I'm sad to say,however, that getting the provisioning pack configured and automated is really proving to be a problem in my company's environment. The thought of having to track down OS credentials for hundreds of servers to enable the automated provisioning and patching functions is fairly intimidating. It is also somewhat annoying since the Agent Deployment procedures force you to set up SSH user equivalence to begin with. Why bother doing that if you're just going to prompt me for a username and password anyway? Grrrrr .... We will continue plugging away at getting our own specific issues resolved, but if anyone has any tips or tutorials specific to the Provisioning Pack, please let me know. I'm not finding a whole lot out there at the moment. FWIW, we are using 10.2.0.4 OMS and agent. Do you find this valuable? |
irfanerp |
51. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 27 2008, 11:16 PM EDT
"Conceptually, Grid Control appeals to me as it provides a central repository and single point of entry for all of my database targets across environments. That's really handy when you have 2500+ databases to manage. I really like the web-based EM interface and not having to remember thousands of URLs is a GOOD thing.Have you looked at nfs agent install, i aint sure why did i even came to this point since your issue with agent deployment, but then if u hv lots of agent u r better off with nfsagentinstall. We have one install of agent being sourced on 40 over hosts IK IK Do you find this valuable? |
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porushh |
52. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 28 2008, 1:00 AM EDT
"Have you looked at nfs agent install, i aint sure why did i even came to this point since your issue with agent deployment, but then if u hv lots of agent u r better off with nfsagentinstall. We have one install of agent being sourced on 40 over hostsI think he means that he has already set up SSH equivalence for the purpose of agent installs (probably used the push method of agent install) and his main concern now is that OS credentials have to be fed in to Grid control for hundreds of servers. One thing that comes to mind is ldap - surely in a large organization you would have the oracle user in ldap? Do you find this valuable? |
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ka220181 |
53. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 28 2008, 9:20 AM EDT
"I think he means that he has already set up SSH equivalence for the purpose of agent installs (probably used the push methodPorushh, you have stated my concern exactly. I'm fairly certain we can automate the agent install with our current tools and infrastructure, but my issue is indeed with not only feeding OS credentials into GC, but having to maintain them going forward to keep the SOX/PCI auditors happy. Amazingly enough, we do not have the oracle user set up in ldap. We started moving in that direction over a year ago, but for reasons unknown to me, this effort was killed and we are still managing Unix accounts locally. Do you find this valuable? |
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suzannew |
54. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 28 2008, 4:06 PM EDT
This is a sore point with me. I spent 3 weeks working with Grid Control and after all of that time and a call to Oracle for an SR I've finally shut it off for now. Three things I've learned1. Before you install Grid Control make sure your HOSTS files are formated with the second entry holding the fully qualified server name. THIS IS REQUIRED to run RAC and if you run into this later you will have to do a full re-installation. 2. Grid Control is installed with all of the Add-ons turned on, if you don't turn off the Add-Ons (like Tuning) you don't license you will owe Oracle money big time. 3. Whenever you change something in your environment you will have to resecure your agents. If you used SSL during your original installation you will need the certificate to resecure your agents. If you don't have the cert. your agent will fail its resecure and a watch dog process that monitors the agents will eat all of you memory in approximately 24 hours. (there is a patch for this) I know I'll have to use Grid Control sooner or later. I'm hoping it will be later. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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porushh |
55. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 28 2008, 10:25 PM EDT
Yes, maybe ldap would be the way to go...do you have one central Dba team or multiple Dba teams? If one central Dba team handling all databases then definitely ldap. You can point this out to your engineering team and tell them the time it would have saved you if you were using ldap.One solution is to make a special unix user for Grid Control only, put in the dba group, put this user in ldap, and use this user for all OS credentials in Grid Control. Then when you need to keep the SOX guys happy, just change the password once in ldap, and the host credentials in Grid Control. In the latter you will have to retype for all hosts, but it is the same password and it is still better than keeping track of multiple passwords for OS Credentials. For LDAP you can try Oracle's Internet Directory which is a ldap directory stored in an Oracle database. Do you find this valuable? |
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porushh |
56. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 28 2008, 10:38 PM EDT
Suzanne, you said "change something in your environment you will have to resecure your agents". What exactly is the change that would cause the agent to need a resecure?All said and done, even with some issues, Grid Control is still a great tool for automation of database management, It even applies patches on your database - think of a lights-out operation where the patch has to be applied to 100s of databases overnight. Grid Control will do that amazingly well. You need the license of the provisoning pack of course. Do you find this valuable? |
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suzannew |
57. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 29 2008, 6:28 PM EDT
Change something as in upgrade a database from Oracle 9.2.0.7 to Oracle 10.2.0.4.To be honest part of my problem is with Oracle's marketing. Oracle found our test environment was under licensed so I had to retire a couple of servers and give up my Tuning and Diagnostic Pack licenses to prevent us from having to pay a very large bill. Then as we were starting to install Grid Control we asked them how much the application licenses would be. We were told that Grid Control wasn't a licensible application so there was no cost. They left out the fact that huge chunks of Grid Control as useless without the Add-on packs. I'll use the old java stuff for now. Do you find this valuable? |
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ka220181 |
58. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 29 2008, 7:08 PM EDT
We have several DBA teams - mostly siloed by environment (dev/test/prod), but there are some pockets of "shadow" DBA teams out there too. I say those guys are on their own :-)Thanks for the suggestion on LDAP route - I'll float it up to the engineering guys and see what happens. SOX guys will still have heartburn over the "generic" id, but maybe if a security admin is established to manage that password they'll be happy with it. Do you find this valuable? |
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porushh |
59. RE: Why companies are not using EM Grid Control
Aug 31 2008, 7:40 AM EDT
>Change something as in upgrade a database from Oracle 9.2.0.7 to Oracle 10.2.0.4.Ok thanks Suzanne, That of course is a major change hence the need for resecuring the agent, >I'll use the old java stuff for now. Even the old 9i OEM required licences for the Tuning and Diagnostics packs, That was a Java installable program so Oracle had separate install options. In the case of Grid Control, everything is browser based so everything gets installed. The first time you use Grid Control after installation, a warning does pop up about the licences required for the packs., The architecture is different now. Oracle is doing the best it can to make sure the customers know about the packs.. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
